Hardware (again)

[phøgli]

So, it is time replace my 7 year old workstation.

I have been using IC for about 10 years, but I still dont know what hardware that would work best for my work. 

I often work with scenes with 5000-10,000 parts, always with part edges on and smooth shading. Often with some transparent parts in the scene.

I also do alot of layout drawings in ICD, often in shaded mode with lots of parts.

I have heard that with directx, there is no gain to go the  pro gpu (quadro) route? Is this true for the ICD environment too?

 I also read somewhere on this forum that the part edges are not rendered in the gpu, but in the cpu? 

Will the xeon give any advantages over an i7 in Ironcad for my work?

So where should I put down the money. Gpu or cpu? Gaming or pro workstation? Will be upgrading to IC2020 when released.

 

 

Regards

Petter

 

 

[SSIMMONS]

Well in my opinion (take it for what it's worth) :

minimum 16 Gig RAM @ 3200 Mhz

SSD EVO (any series will be fast and responsive for IC use)

Westgate Blue HD (for backup storage at a cheaper cost)

MOBO (any will do, just make sure it supports the 3200Mhz)

PSU (aim for about 750 Watts)

CPU (just aim for a high base clock speed and 4 cores, so an i7 would do fine. I have always disliked AMD, but i must say they are now tipping the scales and soon intel is going to be suffering in the CPU market so it's worth looking into)

GPU (i personally don't want to pay a million dollars for a pro Quadro card so i would opt for a RTX 1070 Super. This will run you between 500 and 550 and be extremely fast for rendering, etc.)

I hope this helps you out.

Also it is almost 50 percent cheaper to build your own and a case will run about 50 bucks. It is not hard at all and will take you an hour to 2 hours.

 

- Spencer

[phøgli]

Thank you for your advice Spencer. 

Does anybody know how many cores is supported in IC? Not for picture rendering ( I use Keyshot, gpu rendering), but in the IC scene.?

[Jonas@Solidmakarna]

I think the current HP, Dell, Lenovo etc workstations are working really well. Yes, maybe a few (or many) more bucks, but quite reliable in general. I've been using a HP Zbook 15 laptop for a few years now and it is really good. Just remember to deactivate the integrated Intel HD graphics in them and you'll be fine.

Having a fast SSD and CPU are probably the most important things. I have no hard facts on using Xeon vs. Intel i7 (or i9), but the Xeon also comes with a "special" Windows 10 OS named Window 10 for Workstations. I think it uses the RAM in a better way and has more space for really large amounts of RAM (which is good for FEA calculations), but I haven't been able to try it out myself.

Graphics. I would like to do some tests on Quadro vs. GeForce! The Geforce RTX cards are really good. Now the Quadro recently also came with an RTX version which sounds like a real work horse.

Edited November 21, 2019 by Jonas@Solidmakarna

[SSIMMONS]

I cant be sure how many cores are supported, but i have 12 cores and when i use MPIC it utilizes all 12. 

- Spencer

 

P.S. If you want an absolute monster of a CPU for a fantastic price i would HIGHLY recommend the AMD Ryzen 3900X. It is an incredible card in ever way imaginable. 

Edited November 19, 2019 by SSIMMONS
Additional Information

[rronstad]

Correct me if I`m wrong, but all CAD software I know uses only one core for the work processing. It`s the famous chicken/egg problem, delegating operations to a second core, while the figures for the job is still under processing on the first core, does not gain anything.  The things that count, high processor calculation speed, I run 4 cores and the overclocking (only by using fabricators highest setup) gives me a boost at 4,8 GHz when needed, fast RAM, last start was at 32GB, and always buy chip sizes leaving you with slots for a "2-4 years" tune up by adding some more later. The "box" and PSU are usually working for 1 switch, the Mother Board, RAM, CPU and GPU is often sold as kit`s by online hardware suppliers, that way you know things are compatible, and often can see feedback from early adopters that often have brought the stuff to the test.

SSD goes without saying.

GPU I still have no experience with the RTX series, but have "consumed" the Nvidia GTX 980-1060 and now the 1080, and always check and download the driver updates directly from Nvidia.  OpenGL is basically dead, so the cards designed for Direct-X is what cuts the cheese. Using KeyShot and Multiphysics is what gets the dust out of the cooling fan   Keyshot 9 now comes with the ability to use GPU, and the new KeyShot VR (live VR)  product is only using GPU processing.

Portable, I have stopped buying the "workstations" and had a lot more "bang for the buck" buying a bigger gaming laptop, for IC, MPIC and KeyShot. Actually passed KeyShot VR`s GPU test at install by a small margin with the laptop`s  the GTX 1070. Finding out that running a live VR model demo outside the office, bringing a HTC Vive Pro Kit and a laptop actually works flawlessly   Jan

[Cary OConnor]

IronCAD 2020 will take advantage of the cores better than previous versions. The open/save for sure will take advantage of the cores now. Reordering, assemble/disassemble, and other operation in IronCAD 2020 will all be enhanced by the multiple cores now. If you can invest in that, it will aid in the large assembly design.

Cary

[SSIMMONS]

https://pcpartpicker.com/list/

 

This site will help you build a PC and eliminate non-compatible components as you go. Reviews, prices from different retailers, etc. It should be set-up with an example build already for you to look at and get an idea of how it works. From benchmark testing the new RTX series is roughly 50 to 80 percent faster than the GTX in rendering operations with the same price tag on a lot of cards. You should be able to get into a great PC for under 2000 after all is said and done. My work computer is 1550 and has a rtx 2070 super, 32 gig of corsair vengence 3200 Mhz, 12 cores @ 4.7 boost clock, 500MB SSD and 1 TB HD, after market CPU cooler, and everything else you would need to use IC with large assemblies. Keep in mine that you can transfer the license of your OS and even update from windows 7 to 10 for free (even though they claim the feature has expired). Best of luck, enjoy the new build.

 

- Spencer

 

Edited November 19, 2019 by SSIMMONS
Additional Information

[JELLISON]

Just thought I'd share some info here on the difference between GeForce "gaming" graphics cards and Quadro "professional" graphics cards. We have had this discussion a lot, and this video seems to make a pretty compelling argument for Quadro being the better option (and actually cheaper) when performance is compared.

Quick example, the Quadro P2000 ($600 USD) professional card has the same performance as the Titan V ($3000 USD) gaming card.

Note their test is done using SolidWorks, so whether or not we handle graphics in the same way is a technical question that we might need one of the R&D team to answer, but I'm assuming we handle graphics in a similar way.

 

[phøgli]

Wow, that was informative. Do you know if Solidworks uses opengl or Directx? Always heard that Quadro rocks on opengl.

Edited November 21, 2019 by phøgli

[SSIMMONS]

We use the quadro P2000 in our systems and I can honestly say that when i got rid of it for the RTX 2070 i was very happy. I don't know why that might be, but i can tell you from first hand experience that the quadro was extremely slow in comparison. I have also used the k1200 and k600 and all were drastically under powered. This being said, i chose RTX because of its versatility because i also use Blender and render things for company website, etc. The majority of my work is in AutoCAD, IronCAD, and SW though. What this tells me is that more research might be necessary and also that benchmark is missing all RTX cards which are known to be much faster than the GTX equivalents. Unfortunately it is hard to find this style of benchmark for RTX cards, but from the image above it can be seen with the top tier Geforce RTX beats the Quadro series. I would not be surprised if the others performed well aslo.

- Spencer

 

Edited November 21, 2019 by SSIMMONS
Additional Information

[jolizon590016]

Checkout Techgage

https://techgage.com/category/processors/

https://techgage.com/category/graphics-and-displays/

Quote

 

I often work with scenes with 5000-10,000 parts, always with part edges on and smooth shading. Often with some transparent parts in the scene.

I also do alot of layout drawings in ICD, often in shaded mode with lots of parts.

 

SpecViewPerf will be a good reference for this requirement. This may require an 8GB - 16 GB video card memory variant. What do you usually set part rendering e.g. 48+?

 

Dariusz made a test kostek file that challenges the cpu and gpu on generating shaded with edges by simply rotating the model itself. Please ask him if he can share the file again.

Edited November 30, 2019 by jolizon590016
update

[Guest Carlos]

I'm not sure how big of a user base, those of us that use IronCad with the Oikema Woodlab. 

For those who don't know, when using Oikema, lots of boolean operations are calculated when "updating feature".

Since I'm not knowledgeable enough to understand whats going on, I though that a 24 core Amd Threadripper (3960x) with 64gb ram

and a gtx 1080ti, would do a better job than a 4 core amd 8350/16gb ram/gtx1660. 

Well, not quite. While using oikema, I saw very little cpu use, - on a laaaarge model it went up to 11gb ram, and stayed there. with about 30 of action on the graphics card. 

16gb ram - 32 if you have other needs and a good gtx/rtx, and an affordable cpu, I'm not sure I need more to run Oikema withing IronCad. 

I really wish Cad software could use more cores... not only for rendering. 

[dleczynski]

You can have good equipment and weak for this type of work.
If the configuration of the cad / graphics card / processor and other components is not properly configured, you will not use them in ironcad ( Default settings are bad ... )

ps. oikema in the new version, the calculation has been improved from 8 minutes to 40 seconds.

[jolizon590016]

TFI had a video how high spec versus workable solution:

I came off first gen Ryzen 7 1700X to a 3700X, the single core/ipc improvement was substantial. Higher clock speed/single core ipc performance matters al lot if you are pressed for time. Intel i9900KS might still be the top dog here but the 3700X and 3900X is a worthy alternative. There is still a lot of things about AVX 512 that intel has but sometimes it is applicable to some applications.

On graphics card wireframe or edges see this

 

[phøgli]

That last video with the wireframe was very interesting. I always use edges on my parts when modeling. I wonder how Ironcad handles this. Most of the other pro vs gaming GPU tests i have seen do not use edges in their tests.

[Doug Gower]

 

I'm back in the Hardware (again) stage, so I started looking at GPUs. IronCAD recommended I use a Quadro card but if you look at the Quadro desktop products here it's a little confusing with all of the different model numbers and I heard the Quadro name is going away which might explain why quite a few of the cards here aren't Quadro anymore. I thought it was a good name for recognizing the professional cards so I'm not sure why they would drop it but whatever.

https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/design-visualization/desktop-graphics/

I want to do more rendering with Keyshot so I decided to ask Keyshot if they recommended a video card or if they could tell me the minimum requirements. They said as far as GPU for an Enterprise card I would recommend an RTX Quadro 5000 and up, for a retail card an RTX 3080 and up would be good, these cards have tested very well for GPU rendering.

Then I remembered that the IronCAD version of Keyshot has a smaller or limited screen size/pixel area so I asked if this would make any difference. (i.e., Do I really need that much GPU performance?). For what it's worth, here's what they said...

So the biggest thing we see with GPU rendering is that GPU rendering will use the VRAM of the GPU card not the internal RAM like it would for CPU rendering. If you are working on larger scenes or if the scene is very complex (eg. Advanced material, physical lighting etc.) then a card with more VRAM will be necessary to utilize the GPU card.  Any card with less than 12G of VRAM we have seen customer run in to issue where they will run out of memory while working.  So for you I would recommend looking for a card that has at least 12G of VRAM.

Hopefully this helps other IronCAD + Keyshot users out there.

[Malcolm Crowe]

Hi Doug,

I'm not aware of NVIDIA dropping the QUADRO name. As I understand it, these CAD specific QUADRO cards share the same hardware as the game specific GEFORCE cards. The difference between these card series being in the drivers; with the focus of GEFORCE being on moving images as opposed to fine static images for the QUADRO.

The current hardware generation from NVIDIA is the "RTX" Series. So what you will see in the offerings from NVIDIA are the QUADRO "RTX" Series and GEFORCE "RTX" Series. The previous generation of hardware for CAD (and still available) was the QUADRO "P" Series.

The cards being recommended by KEYSHOT (that is, the GEFORCE RTX 3080 AND QUADRO RTX 5000) are both serious cards. I don't use KEYSHOT but I imagine that it would need to be a very large model (like a large building) to max. out these cards. But others who actually use KEYSHOT will be better able to comment.

Malcolm

[Doug Gower]

Hi Malcolm,

Here's a link I found about the Quadro brand going away. I agree, both of those are serious cards and you're right about the drivers.

I was looking for a new card that will last a long time but I'm starting to wonder if I might be better off if I wait a while to update the video. Some of these aren't even in stock right now.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/16168/more-on-nvidia-quadro-brand-retirement-embracing-the-graphics-and-compute-overlap

[Malcolm Crowe]

Thanks Doug. That's interesting.

Malcolm

[jolizon590016]

A fast 4 - 8 core cpu will always be an advantage. Fast SSD or NVme also speed up things. I don't use Nvidia cards but rated best at CAD. I am using W10 Home version, maybe W10 Professional should be better. I have used Radeon Pro WX4100 and WX3100 and worked well. I went back to mid tier entry level Radeon 5500XT 8GB cards for 2K monitors. With AMD cards, be sure to set Display List to Segment. The latest update on W10 allow Radeon Pro Enterprise driver to run on my 5500XT.

I have unticked Use Cache Graphical Display Data and Use Visual Load when Opening Files as it works better for me, I don't know if this prevents anything to work better on other hardware.

I use Keyshot and denoise feature works on my current gpu.

Overall the Task Manager>Performance will show you which hardware takes the load on regenerating or loading the file and moving it around.

I have made a video from a GrabCAD model with a size of 229MB truck with Task Manager running.

Joseph

Edited June 20, 2021 by jolizon590016
update

[Doug Gower]

Thanks for all the suggestions Joseph!

[SSIMMONS]

On 6/19/2021 at 2:05 AM, Doug Gower said:

Hi Malcolm,

Here's a link I found about the Quadro brand going away. I agree, both of those are serious cards and you're right about the drivers.

I was looking for a new card that will last a long time but I'm starting to wonder if I might be better off if I wait a while to update the video. Some of these aren't even in stock right now.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/16168/more-on-nvidia-quadro-brand-retirement-embracing-the-graphics-and-compute-overlap

The crypto world is going through some significant changes right now and farms are being relocated, exiled, etc. so I'm sure we will see some odd behavior is card prices and availability in the short term (hopefully not the long term) so I think waiting is probably the best play for GPU related hardware at the time being. Just keep an eye on those prices, who knows...maybe they could even go down for a change.