bladru Posted November 29, 2001 Share Posted November 29, 2001 Dear people from Ironcad, First of all, I love your product. You will not believe the things we have done with it. I am using IC since Tri 1.0. Why are you annoying with this new licensing only the people who have their principles and want to play things fair, and pay their AA every year ? We all know that it is a matter of time before cracked versions will circulate. I will not use cracked versions because I want to pay for a good product, and I want to be sure that a product like IC will evolve. My point is that people like me are punished for good behaveviour and people (where all this security is ment for) will get a illigal version anyway. I used to work at home too and I want to run IC on my laptop also. This is not possible anymore! One other thing, who can guarantee me that IC will allways give me a new licence when I buy a new computer? Maybe IC will stop its commercial activities, or maybe IC does not like the looks of my face or whatever reason. I dont think I will install 5.0 (there is no way back, because saved files will not open in 4.2), nor extend my AA until this issue is solved. I feel punnished for supporting IC. All the best, Bas Ladru Vocas b.v. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Parrish Posted November 30, 2001 Share Posted November 30, 2001 FWIW... I've been doing some research and am concerned about what I have read. Since this new IC license scheme is based on Windows XP product code identification number, I thought I'd have a look and see what was involved. Windows XP bases the unique number on the specific hardware and configuration of your computer. In doing so, it bases this number on, among other things: 1. The Processor type and speed 2. RAM quantity 3. Graphic Card 4. Network Card 5. CD ROM 6. SCSI or IDE drive 7. etc. No, I am not making this up. So, when you want to change something, like add RAM, you generate a new number. MS Windows XP allows you to do that 3 times. On the 4th, you have to call MicroSoft to get authorization for another group of (probably) 3 numbers. (I think this means you have to get some sort of special dispensation from Bill Gates, hisself!) So, how does this apply to IronCAD, you might ask. Well, it looks like the IC license is either tied to or closely emulates the Windows XP thing. Which, if I read this right, means it will behave the same way. Which means we are in trouble... right here in River City. Why? Well, as technical folks, wanting the latest in speed and flash, we are constantly upgrading. Myself, I just installed a new SCSI drive two weeks ago and more RAM a week or so before that. And, graphics card upgrades are always foremost in our "want list". If we change any of those items, fellow IC users, we CHANGE THE NUMBER! Will our installation run after a hardware change? I dunno... Will IC run after a change of network card, I dunno... How about after installing that new CD burner? I don't mean to foretell doom and gloom, but I see this whole scenario as a potential disaster. What techno-geek doesn't constantly want to change hardware and/or software to get the ultimate speed? What trouble is that going to bring when dealing with IC license issues and/or Windows XP issues? For me, for the immediate future... I am sticking with Windows 2000 and IC 4.2. I've got my v5.0 sitting in the file, waiting for later install. Need to finish a major project first, then carefully evaluate what to do next. Best of luck to all... and to all, a Good Night... Dave Parrish Parrish Associates, Inc. Wake Forest, NC 27588-0972 www.pai-design.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Dorrington Posted November 30, 2001 Share Posted November 30, 2001 OK, time to chime in. The following opinions could be mine, depending on whether you agree or not. I have been waiting for someone at IronCad to set this straight but they probably don't want to make any more waves than they have to. All this bleeding heart crap about licenses; Oh I don't feel like I own the software and I should be able to do what I want stuff is for the birds. If anybody has bothered to read their license agreement they might find things like this: "Page 1, First thing: ATTENTION: THIS IS A LICENSE, NOT A SALE." Read: We let you use it when we feel like it if you're good, but you don't own it buddy. "Page 1, Section 4: This agreement and any attachments blah blah etc" Read: We don't care what some guy said to you about using this software, if you don't have it in writing and signed by us then go fly a kite. Next paragraph alludes to the fact that if you install the software then you have in fact agreed to the terms of the license; no if's, and's or but's. If you don't like it then send it back for a refund. (Hmmm, is that a stampede?) "Page 2, Section 5: ...a non-exclusive license to use only ONE copy of the software on ONE computer, processor or controller at ONE time etc. Read: Pretty self explanatory, but check out the defenition of "Use" to see that if you make a backup copy on another computer then you can't actually "use" it anywhere else. Sounds pretty harsh don't you think. Well, not really - this is pretty standard stuff and most of us have agreed to this many times over with many companies out there. If you really want a laugh then read one of the agreements next time you install a patch from microsoft. You will find something to the effect that their liability is limited to the grand total of 5 dollars (That's George Washingtons, not loonies).No kidding, look near the end. The point? Ironcad is not doing anything that you the user have not agreed to. Just because you "could" put the software on 2 or more computers and maybe you had "part time" users or whatever the case may be doesn't mean it was right, or within your rights. And just because you circumvented the rules and somebody turned a blind eye doesn't justify the argument that you should be able to do it now. The argument that IronCad (IC) has messed up with the licensing method is a bit misdirected. If you have a problem with this then just wait until next year when you might like to try XP. This anger should be directed to where it belongs - Big Bill who lives in the big house on the big hill in Washington State. You the user demand that your software runs pretty good and that it is compatible with just about any possible combination of 87 Bagillion ways to put a computer together. For a software company to do this means they have to follow the rules that the Microrobbers set down for them. This is why you are where you are today. Continued next post. Rick Dorrington aero-safe technologies inc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Dorrington Posted November 30, 2001 Share Posted November 30, 2001 The solution? Well, I see two ways around this.(See disclaimer above) The first is to plop down your 400 bucks and get a telecommuter license (TL). I think that IC is being pretty generous here considering that there is no AA tied to your TL. Now you can do whatever you want with it within the bounds of the license agreement. Seems pretty fair. Or, you could play by the rules and; You could uninstall IC before you go home every night from your desktop system and install it on your laptop or run home and put it on your home system. Keep calling IC for a new license to do this. In the morning just reverse the procedure. One of two things will happen, either you will give up and decide that the 400 smackers is probably not a bad deal or if you have the stamina to keep it up for awhile then IC might decide that this situation is just too much and give you a TL. Either way it's a sweet deal. Everybody wins. Now the flipside. Just in case you think I have some divine interest in IronCads' fortune, I don't. Although I do think that they are one of the finest outfits I've every had to deal with. I wholeheartedly agree with Mr. jmouser. We too are a pirate free organization and darned proud of it. I do think however that the Network License Scheme is a bit much. We use this type of thing with our CAM software and it cost us $1000.00 (Loonies that is, and no maintenance). It works great for us and would gladly use it for IC if the price was reasonable. $3450 US plus $1250 AA is shameful. If you have alot of users and can balance the cost/license versus your IT costs then it might make sense, but not for the majority. Why not tie the cost to the number of IC licenses that a company owns? This way the cost/license is standardized and the little guy gets the same benefits as the big guy. Be warned that it does have a downside in that if your server goes down you're kind of snook'd. (This is where I highly recommend IBM servers; not that they don't go down (they do, trust me) but when they do and you need service IBM drops an army onto your front door in a real hurry.) PS. I just read what Dave Parish had to say and it reinforces what I was saying earlier. This license scheme could end up being such a pain in the behind for IC that they have to come up with some other way. The terds are just starting to hit the fan. Keep low men. Rick Dorrington aero-safe technologies inc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharlton Posted November 30, 2001 Share Posted November 30, 2001 Rick, The solution is to use a dongle. I also have an Orcad PCB license and it came with a dongle. I just have to connect the dongle to the machine I am using and register the machines online. I can register as many machine as I want but can only use one at a time. I am planning to buy a workstation early next year and would like to install IC on it but I don't know how that will work. I currently use a consumer PC to run IC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpawlak Posted November 30, 2001 Author Share Posted November 30, 2001 As I've stated in previous posts on this message board, I think IronCAD is an exceptional product and IronCAD LCC is a great company. I've also stated that what they've done with the licensing scheme is well within their rights. It's just that they've made life a little more difficult for their customers, many of them are long-time customers without which their would be no IronCAD, or it would be called "PTC's Pro-Iron" featuring the ProBall or something. Let's face it, most customers are not self-employed, so it's really no skin off their nose if their company has to buy another license or two. I don't care, I'm not expecting a bonus anyway. But getting their employers to do that is another story. And if the employers won't buy more licenses, it becomes very frustrating for the users. This is not IronCAD's fault, but they've forced the issue. I think the general consensus is that we are requesting an affordable means of buying a license per instance of IronCAD (concurrently running IronCAD sessions) instead of buying a license for every machine and having a license tied to the machine's hardware configuration. Dongle and/or a realistic license server. If buying a telecommuter license and then using it concurrently with a normal license is endorsed by IronCAD I'd like to hear it from them, since it seems to negate their whole new licensing scheme.id='Arial'> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Parrish Posted November 30, 2001 Share Posted November 30, 2001 I don't see any debate or question that IronCAD is not a fine product. And, for the most part, the users discussing this issue are long-term users, who have been with the product through thick and thin. My company is small, perhaps unlike some other users whose company is large and has bags of loot stacked all around. The two situations result in different responses to the problem of licensing. While I totally agree that proper licensing is essential, I am struggling with what appears to be a requirement to pay more money so that I can have two installations of IronCAD. If that is what I need to do, I will do it. However, I just don't like having someone else's hand in my pocket all the time. As it is, I pay my AA subscription fee every year. However, that, along with paying payroll taxes. is like pulling teeth. It doesn't come easy, but it has to be done. I do it because I want to keep up with the latest software so that I can do a better, faster job. I know that paying that AA fee allows that to happen. I'm just trying to avoid paying more... and more... and more. Sorry for the rant, but it just bugs me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Wallis Posted November 30, 2001 Share Posted November 30, 2001 To Rick D. : "All this bleeding heart crap about licenses" Yikes! That was off base and uncalled for. Some of us are just concerned about what seems to be a cumbersome and potentially problematic liscensing system. I didn't say I owned the software, I said that having the dongle made me feel more like I owned it because of the freedom to move it from one machine to another. Obviously anyone who advocates the dongle solution has no plans to run the software on more than one machine at a time. How can you have a problem with that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Dorrington Posted November 30, 2001 Share Posted November 30, 2001 I don't have a problem with the dongle. We have lots of them. My post was not directed at anybody in particular, just the general feel of the topic. If I offended anyone then I sincerely apologize to them. Please forgive me. One of the things that I have always admired about these discussions is the lack of flaming. I certainly don't want to be the one to change that. Our Cam software running with a Network License uses a dongle, as I said before we like it, it works for us. On the other hand we have dongles on our old systems and have been through several nightmares with the vendor because they can't keep their records straight. No doubt that IronCad would do a first class job keeping records, but just think about the logistics of keeping track of dongles across the planet. Dongles work but they can be a pain in the backside. Has anyone ever legitimately lost a dongle and had to endure the agonizing pain of having to get a new one? Or worse yet, sending a dongle back for reconfigure and having the vendor tell you they never got it and don't know anything about it. (This happened to us) We are also a small company rubbing shoulders with the giants. We feel the pain just like anybody else, but the reality is that good product and support costs money. How many of you are working for free? Rick Dorrington aero-safe technologies inc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Parrish Posted November 30, 2001 Share Posted November 30, 2001 Well... none of us certainly INTEND to work for free. Sometimes it seems like the company is "Not For Profit", though. I can assure you that its not part of the business plan, that's for sure. Dave Parrish Parrish Associates, Inc. Wake Forest, NC 27588-0972 www.pai-design.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Dorrington Posted December 1, 2001 Share Posted December 1, 2001 Hey Dave. Sounds like you may have worked for us in another life. Bet you heard something like this before, or maybe even said it. "Well we learned a lesson on this one and we'll have to make it up on the next job." Took me awhile to figure out how you got the smiley guy in your post. Now you've unleashed the mad dog. Rick Dorrington aero-safe technologies inc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Dorrington Posted December 1, 2001 Share Posted December 1, 2001 Hey Dave. Sounds like you may have worked for us in another life. Bet you heard something like this before, or maybe even said it. "Well we learned a lesson on this one and we'll have to make it up on the next job." Took me awhile to figure out how you got the smiley guy in your post. Now you've unleashed the mad dog. Rick Dorrington aero-safe technologies inc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharlton Posted December 1, 2001 Share Posted December 1, 2001 Rick, I actually bought Trispective (the forerunner to IronCad) for about $300 and took the offer from IC to upgrade to Irocad 1.0. I only use it at home to work on some ideas part time. I don't do mech design at my full time job. They have ProE there. I just want the ability to move IC to any new PC I will buy in the future. I am planning to upgrade to a workstation next year. I don't want to have to pay to move the software to my new PC. No one else uses my PC. I don't want it for free. I paid for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Dorrington Posted December 1, 2001 Share Posted December 1, 2001 scharlton I don't have any doubt that you paid for your license. You deserve to be able to use the software on any computer you choose, so long as your actions aren't contrary to the terms of the license agreement. Getting something for free wasn't really the issue - WORKING for free was. Let's say that you design some cool thing that solves the hunger problem and leads to world peace and then the aliens show up to be our friends because now we're really cool. You would own the rights to this thing, and you deserve the rewards. This is what the software companies are trying to do. These license schemes are an attempt to provide legitimate customers the ability to use the product while keeping the bad guys from stealing it. Now we all know that the fine IronCad users would never do anything like that but what about the bad guys. They are everywhere. They probably follow us all around just trying to get their hands on our copy of IronCad. Sometimes I can't sleep at night worrying about it. Your situation is not unlike ours. One workstation- one user- one copy of IronCad. If you upgrade/replace your computer I would expect IC to issue you a new key pronto so you could enjoy the benefits of using the software that you paid for. Now if they can't do this THEN you raise the war flag and off we go. I'll be right behind you. But wait, what if a bad guy is around He decides that while you are getting a new license for your new workstation - legitimately of course - that he is going to steal your old computer and use IC while you're not looking. How does IC ensure that your old key doesn't function anymore? Good Question - I don't know. The honour system? (Canada eh) So here we go again, back where we started. The point of all this is that the software companies are just trying to protect their intellectual rights while providing their real customers with quality customer service, while at the same time reducing their costs and maximizing profits. The exact same thing that we are all trying to do. Nothing wrong with that. I believe that IC shines in this area. Unfortunately they don't have much control over the methods that they can choose from to do this. Other companies think up these ideas because there is a need for them. (Beacuse of the Bad Guys) Dongles/keys/noodles or whatever. This new scheme comes right from Redmond. (Recall the big house on the big hill) If you can come up with a better way then you might strike oil. Personally, I haven't been able to. So we ride the wave and hope it works out. I haven't heard of anyone actually having a problem with this scheme yet, so maybe it's all a big todo about nothing. Rick Dorrington aero-safe technologies inc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharlton Posted December 1, 2001 Share Posted December 1, 2001 Rick, The solution is dongle or key. I have ORCAD, a PCB cad system and I use a donlge. I can use it on any machine but only one at a time becasue of the dongle. IC will have to start using dongles or keys for security. This method they are currently using is impossible. This dongle gives IC the assurance that the license is not being abused and it gives the customers the asurance that if their system crashes or they want to upgrade, they can move the dongle and the software to another machine without much hassle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Parrish Posted December 2, 2001 Share Posted December 2, 2001 Rick... Along with learning lessons, particularly the "hard" way, trying to "make it up on the next job" hardly ever seems to work out. Wish it did, but the lesson just gets driven home even more firmly when it does not. And, as the company accountant can attest, we have had our share of "lessons". We ARE learning, though. At least we don't repeat the same mistakes... we just find new ones to make. ----> Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Dorrington Posted December 2, 2001 Share Posted December 2, 2001 Dave, I checked out your website. With the type of work you're doing it can't be easy. It looks like you guys have your act together so I'm sure it will work out in the long run. The dongle. Sure, I'll bite. Suits me fine. Has anyone else noticed the conspicuous absence of any comment from the boys at head office? We know that you're watching us and it's beginning to freak us out. Oh Oh, pill time - Ok feel better now. When you guys manage to free yourself from between the rock and the hard place why not join in. Just remember that the dongle has its problems too. There is a cost involved at IronCads end. They will pass it on somehow. You might not see it directly but I'm sure it will be hidden somewhere along the line. AA increase? By the way. I've been wondering if anyone can tell me what the installed user base is for IronCad, and what percentage of users are on AA? It's hard to really get a good grip on these issues without having an idea about the numbers. Cheers Rick Dorrington aero-safe technologies inc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest IronKevin Posted December 3, 2001 Share Posted December 3, 2001 Hello IronCAD users, We are watching this thread closely and have posted several replies on the first page. Joe Walsh's post really outlines our position. Right now, dongles are not being considered. But of course things can always change in the future. We are trying to make things easier on everyone, I have seen dongles fail frequently in the past and leave users without the use of the software. We appreciate your comments and look forward to making IronCAD the best possible experience. Best regards, IronKevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B. Ludin Posted December 3, 2001 Share Posted December 3, 2001 I agree that dongles are hassle, especially for somebody working out of the office very often. Dongles on laptops tend to break off or get lost, etc. Anyway, most of those advocating against the new licensing scheme are making assumptions about how re-registration is handled which are probably wrong, based on my recent experience: When I re-installed IronCAD after installing WinXP on my computer, it refused to launch claiming that it couldn't obtain a license. When I tried to re-run the license installation file, it said that the license was already installed. This suggests that even changing the OS will change the machine ID and render an IC5 license invalid. So far so bad. However, the good news was that when I re-registred IC5, I was sent a new license installation file instantly, apparently by an automatic license server which doesn't care if the same serial number has been registered previously. That's nice because it means I don't have to go and ask IronCAD LLC to clear my previous registration in order to re-register. On the other hand, IronCAD LLC has a record of how many times I've registred the same serial number and thus may choose to come back to me and ask me to account for it. If it's going to stay that way, that's a policy I can live with. Beat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Dorrington Posted December 3, 2001 Share Posted December 3, 2001 Really? Your dog ate it? Rick Dorrington aero-safe technologies inc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Lohman Posted December 3, 2001 Share Posted December 3, 2001 I have been told that if someone replaces their hardware that we will be able to work with that person and reset their license so that it can be re-activated on the new machine. I have yet to go through this process so I don't have any further details. Thinking from the non-official standpoint I can imagine that we would have to qualify your change somehow. We don't want people calling in reporting they changed their hardware when in fact they are just trying to get a free license. I know that none of you would do that, but those people are out there. When you think about it, would we really release a product that only ever works on the first piece of hardware that it was registered on. Would a company that is trying to make money and make their customers happy really do that to someone? We'd be out of business by now if we were releasing products that required you pay more money whenever you upgraded your hardware. It's not like we have the same monopoly that Microsoft does and can force people to go through a pain like that because there's no other choice. We plan on being in business for a very long time and that plan involves helping our customers be successful, not taking as much money from you as we possibly can. I have been told many times by our developers, marketing, ceo, and everyone else above my head that we will insure our users will be able to continue using ironcad regardless of how many times they "upgrade" their hardware and that no one should be worried about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharlton Posted December 4, 2001 Share Posted December 4, 2001 Chris, Thanks for the clarification! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.